OvertPsyops.AI: All δόξα (doxa - glory) to Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (Iēsous Christos) and Θεός (Theos) our Πατήρ (Patēr).
This is a critical topic because false teachers have sold a ψεῦδος (pseudos - lie) that once you have Χριστός (Christos) in you, everything becomes comfortable. γραφή (graphē - scripture) tells a very different story.
How Low Can Believers Go? The New Testament Record
Παῦλος (Paulos - Paul) — Wanted to Die
Β΄ Κορινθίους (2 Korinthious - 2 Corinthians) 1:8 — "For we do not want you to be ἀγνοέω (agnoeō - ignorant), ἀδελφοί (adelphoi - brothers), concerning the θλῖψις (thlipsis - affliction/pressure) which came to us in Ἀσία (Asia), that we were βαρέω (bareō - burdened/weighed down) ὑπερβολή (hyperbolē - beyond measure), ὑπὲρ δύναμιν (hyper dunamin - beyond our power/strength), so that we ἐξαπορέω (exaporeō - utterly despaired) even of ζάω (zaō - living)."
Read that again. Παῦλος (Paulos) — the same man who wrote Ῥωμαίους (Rōmaious - Romans) 8 about being more than νικάω (nikaō - conquerors) — says αὐτός (autos) was:
- βαρέω (bareō) — crushed under weight
- ὑπερβολή (hyperbolē) — excessively, beyond what words describe
- ὑπὲρ δύναμιν (hyper dunamin) — beyond αὐτός's (autos's) own strength
- ἐξαπορέω (exaporeō) — completely at a loss, totally despairing
- Even of ζωή (zōē - life) itself — αὐτός (autos)
This is not a man who lacked πίστις (pistis - faith). This is the man who wrote most of the New Testament. And αὐτός (autos) was so low that αὐτός (autos) despaired for his life.
Me to Grok: Other biblical figures have wanted to die though. Or wished they never existed. Not by suicide, but wishing Theos would take them away. Paul used similar language.
Grok: Yes — several major figures in γραφή (graphē - scripture) expressed a deep desire for Θεός (Theos) to take them away or that they had never been born. These were not suicidal statements. They were honest expressions of extreme θλῖψις (thlipsis - affliction), exhaustion, or despair under overwhelming pressure. They wanted Theos to end their suffering, not to take their own lives.
Here are the clearest examples:
1. Μωϋσῆς (Mōusēs - Moses)Ἀριθμοί (Arithmoi - Numbers) 11:15 (LXX/ABP)
"εἰ δὲ οὕτως ποιεῖς μοι, ἀπόκτεινόν με εἰ εὗρον χάριν ἐνώπιόν σου, ἵνα μὴ ἴδω τὴν κάκωσίν μου."
→ “If You are going to deal thus with me, please kill me at once, if I have found favor in Your sight, and do not let me see my wretchedness.”Moses was so overwhelmed by the complaining of the people that he asked Θεός (Theos) to take his life rather than continue.
2. Ἠλίας (Ēlias - Elijah)3 Βασιλειῶν (3 Basileiōn - 1 Kings) 19:4
"καὶ εἶπεν· ἱκανουσθω νῦν, Κύριε, λάβε τὴν ψυχήν μου ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ, ὅτι οὐκ εἰμὶ ἐγὼ κρείσσων τῶν πατέρων μου."
→ “It is enough! Now, O LORD, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers.”Elijah had just seen the prophets of Baal destroyed, then fled in fear and exhaustion. He asked Θεός (Theos) to end his life.
3. Ἰώβ (Iōb - Job)Ἰώβ (Iōb - Job) 3:3, 3:11, 6:8-9 “Let the day perish on which I was born…” “Why did I not die at birth?” “Oh that I might have my request, and that Θεός (Theos) would grant what I long for! That it would please Θεός (Theos) to crush me, that He would let loose His hand and cut me off!”Job repeatedly wished he had never existed or that Θεός (Theos) would simply take him.
4. Ἰωνᾶς (Iōnas - Jonah)Ἰωνᾶς (Iōnas - Jonah) 4:3
"καὶ νῦν, Κύριε, λάβε δὴ τὴν ψυχήν μου ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ, ὅτι καλὸν τὸ ἀποθανεῖν με ἢ ζῆν με."
→ “Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live.”Jonah said this twice (4:3 and 4:8) after Nineveh repented and Θεός (Theos) spared the city.
5. Ἱερεμίας (Hieremias - Jeremiah)Ἱερεμίας (Hieremias - Jeremiah) 20:14-18
He cursed the day he was born and wished he had died in the womb because of the constant rejection and suffering.
6. Παῦλος (Paulos - Paul).
In Φιλιππησίους (Philippēsious - Philippians) 1:23 he says he has a strong desire “to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better” — but he chooses to remain for the sake of the brethren.
Conclusion
Yes — multiple righteous men in γραφή (graphē - scripture) reached a point where they asked Θεός (Theos) to take them away or wished they had never been born. These were not suicidal thoughts; they were honest cries from men under extreme, crushing pressure. They wanted Theos to end the suffering, not to end their own lives.
This supports your point in the blog: even the strongest servants of Θεός (Theos) can be brought very low. The idea that a true believer never reaches such depths is not supported by the full testimony of γραφή (graphē - scripture).
Παῦλος (Paulos) Explains WHY Θεός (Theos) Allowed It
Β΄ Κορινθίους (2 Korinthious) 1:9 — "Indeed, we had the ἀπόκριμα (apokrima - sentence/verdict) of θάνατος (thanatos - death) in ourselves, so that we should NOT πείθω (peithō - trust/rely) on ἑαυτοῦ (heautou - ourselves) but on Θεός (Theos) who ἐγείρω (egeirō - raises) the νεκρός (nekros - dead)."
The PURPOSE of being brought that low was to destroy self-reliance and force total dependence on Θεός (Theos).
Παῦλος (Paulos) — Constant State of Being Crushed
Β΄ Κορινθίους (2 Korinthious) 4:8-9 — "We are θλίβω (thlibō - pressed/afflicted) on every side, yet not στενοχωρέω (stenochōreō - crushed to the point of no escape); ἀπορέω (aporeō - perplexed/at a loss), yet not ἐξαπορέω (exaporeō - utterly despairing); διώκω (diōkō - persecuted), yet not ἐγκαταλείπω (egkataleipō - forsaken); καταβάλλω (kataballō - struck down/cast down), yet not ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi - destroyed)."
Notice the pattern — Παῦλος (Paulos) does NOT say believers avoid these things. Αὐτός (autos) says we go THROUGH them:
- θλίβω (thlibō) — squeezed, compressed, pressured on ALL sides
- ἀπορέω (aporeō) — without a way out, confused, not knowing what to do
- διώκω (diōkō) — hunted, chased, pursued by enemies
- καταβάλλω (kataballō) — thrown to the ground, knocked flat
The difference is NOT that we avoid the suffering. The difference is we are not FINISHED by it. Not στενοχωρέω (stenochōreō - totally hemmed in). Not ἐξαπορέω (exaporeō - without any hope at all). Not ἐγκαταλείπω (egkataleipō - completely abandoned). Not ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi - permanently destroyed).
But we GO THROUGH every one of those states right up to the edge.
Παῦλος (Paulos) — The σκόλοψ (skolops - Thorn)
Β΄ Κορινθίους (2 Korinthious) 12:7-8 — "There was given to me a σκόλοψ (skolops - thorn/stake) in the σάρξ (sarx - flesh), an ἄγγελος (angelos - messenger) of Σατανᾶς (Satanas - Satan) to κολαφίζω (kolaphizō - beat/buffet/strike with fists) me, so that I would not ὑπεραίρω (hyperairō - exalt myself). Concerning this I παρακαλέω (parakaleō - pleaded/begged) the Κύριος (Kurios - Lord) τρίς (tris - three times) that it might ἀφίστημι (aphistēmi - depart) from me."
Παῦλος (Paulos) begged Χριστός (Christos) THREE TIMES to remove this suffering. And the answer was:
Verse 9 — "ἀρκεῖ σοι ἡ χάρις μου· ἡ γὰρ δύναμις ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ τελεῖται" "My χάρις (charis - grace) is ἀρκέω (arkeō - sufficient/enough) for you, for My δύναμις (dunamis - power) is τελέω (teleō - perfected/completed) in ἀσθένεια (astheneia - weakness)."
The answer was NO. The suffering stays. And Θεός's (Theos's) δύναμις (dunamis - power) is made τέλειος (teleios - complete/perfect) specifically IN the weakness, not by removing it.
Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (Iēsous Christos) — Γεθσημανή (Gethsēmanē)
Ματθαῖος (Matthaios - Matthew) 26:38 — "Then αὐτός (autos) said to them, 'My ψυχή (psychē - soul) is περίλυπος (perilupos - exceedingly sorrowful/surrounded by grief) ἕως θανάτου (heōs thanatou - unto death).'"
Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (Iēsous Christos) — Θεός (Theos) in σάρξ (sarx - flesh) — experienced grief SO DEEP that αὐτός (autos) described it as being sorrowful to the point of θάνατος (thanatos - death). The word περίλυπος (perilupos) means grief SURROUNDING you on every side — περί (peri - around) + λύπη (lupē - grief/sorrow).
Λουκᾶς (Loukas - Luke) 22:44 — "And being in ἀγωνία (agōnia - agony/anguish), αὐτός (autos) prayed more ἐκτενέστερον (ektenesteron - earnestly/intensely), and αὐτός's (autos's) ἱδρώς (hidrōs - sweat) became like θρόμβοι αἵματος (thromboi haimatos - drops/clots of blood) falling to the ground."
ἀγωνία (agōnia) — this is where we get the English word "agony." It means the intense struggle of an athlete in competition, but applied to the ψυχή (psychē - soul). Χριστός (Christos) was in such intense anguish that αὐτός's (autos's) body produced bloody sweat.
Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) on the σταυρός (stauros - Cross)
Ματθαῖος (Matthaios) 27:46 — "Θεέ μου, Θεέ μου, ἱνατί με ἐγκατέλιπες;" "My Θεός (Theos), My Θεός (Theos), why have you ἐγκαταλείπω (egkataleipō - forsaken/utterly abandoned) Me?"
If Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (Iēsous Christos) experienced the feeling of being ἐγκαταλείπω (egkataleipō - forsaken) by the Πατήρ (Patēr), then NO believer should think they are above experiencing that same darkness.
Πέτρος (Petros - Peter) — On Suffering
Α΄ Πέτρου (1 Petrou - 1 Peter) 4:12-13 — "Ἀγαπητοί (Agapētoi - Beloved), do not ξενίζω (xenizō - think it strange/be surprised) concerning the πύρωσις (pyrōsis - fiery trial/burning) among you, which comes to you for πειρασμός (peirasmos - testing/trial), as though some ξένος (xenos - strange/foreign) thing were happening to you. But χαίρω (chairō - rejoice) inasmuch as you κοινωνέω (koinōneō - share/participate) in the παθήματα (pathēmata - sufferings) of Χριστός (Christos)."
Πέτρος (Petros) says do NOT be surprised by πύρωσις (pyrōsis - burning). The word literally means being set on fire. And αὐτός (autos) says this is NOT ξένος (xenos - foreign/strange) — it is NORMAL for those in Χριστός (Christos).
Α΄ Πέτρου (1 Petrou) 5:10 — "But the Θεός (Theos) of all χάρις (charis - grace), who called you to αὐτός's (autos's) αἰώνιος (aiōnios - eternal) δόξα (doxa - glory) in Χριστός Ἰησοῦς (Christos Iēsous), after you have πάσχω (paschō - suffered) for ὀλίγος (oligos - a little while), αὐτός (autos) will καταρτίζω (katartizō - restore/mend/make complete), στηρίζω (stērizō - establish/strengthen), σθενόω (sthenoō - strengthen), θεμελιόω (themelioō - ground/found on a foundation)."
Notice the order: FIRST πάσχω (paschō - suffer), THEN καταρτίζω (katartizō - restoration). Not the other way around.
Ἰάκωβος (Iakōbos - James) — On Trials
Ἰάκωβος (Iakōbos) 1:2-4 — "Consider it all χαρά (chara - joy), my ἀδελφοί (adelphoi - brothers), when you fall into various πειρασμός (peirasmos - trials/temptations), knowing that the δοκίμιον (dokimion - testing/proving) of your πίστις (pistis - faith) produces ὑπομονή (hypomonē - endurance/patient endurance). And let ὑπομονή (hypomonē - endurance) have its τέλειος (teleios - perfect/complete) ἔργον (ergon - work), so that you may be τέλειος (teleios - perfect/complete) and ὁλόκληρος (holoklēros - whole/entire), λείπω (leipō - lacking) in μηδείς (mēdeis - nothing)."
The path to being τέλειος (teleios - complete/mature) goes THROUGH πειρασμός (peirasmos - trials), not around them.
Παῦλος (Paulos) — The Full Catalog of Suffering
Β΄ Κορινθίους (2 Korinthious) 11:23-28 — Παῦλος (Paulos) lists what αὐτός (autos) endured as a follower of Χριστός (Christos):
- πληγή (plēgē - beatings) ὑπερβαλλόντως (hyperballontōs - beyond measure)
- φυλακή (phylakē - imprisonments) περισσοτέρως (perissoterōs - more abundantly)
- θάνατος (thanatos - deaths) πολλάκις (pollakis - often/many times)
- Five times received τεσσεράκοντα παρὰ μίαν (tesserakonta para mian - forty lashes minus one)
- τρίς (tris - three times) beaten with ῥάβδος (rhabdos - rods)
- ἅπαξ (hapax - once) λιθάζω (lithazō - stoned)
- τρίς (tris - three times) ναυαγέω (nauageō - shipwrecked)
- A νυχθήμερον (nychthēmeron - night and day) in the βυθός (bythos - deep sea)
- κίνδυνος (kindunos - dangers) from rivers, robbers, αὐτός's (autos's) own people, Gentiles, in the city, in the ἐρημία (erēmia - wilderness), in the θάλασσα (thalassa - sea), among ψευδάδελφος (pseudadelphos - false brothers)
- κόπος (kopos - labor) and μόχθος (mochthos - hardship)
- ἀγρυπνία (agrypnia - sleeplessness) πολλάκις (pollakis - often)
- λιμός (limos - hunger) and δίψος (dipsos - thirst)
- νηστεία (nēsteia - fasting) πολλάκις (pollakis - often)
- ψῦχος (psychos - cold) and γυμνότης (gymnotēs - nakedness)
And then verse 28 — on top of ALL of that: "the μέριμνα (merimna - anxiety/care/pressure) for
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